[this is me thinking better of commenting on the FP]

"davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com" (davesaddiction) 07/10/2020 at 12:46 • Filed to: None

5

60

“plowed into”

“rammed”

“attacked”

Let me start by saying there are clearly some cases where drivers have been in the wrong and acted dangerously and poorly in these situations, they they should be prosecuted.

But, i n how many of these (66) cases were protestors actually treated for any injuries after the incident?

I don’t understand how people don’t realize that it is completely illegal to detain another person (even if they’re inside their car) :

Most jurisdictions consider the obstruction of traffic an illegal activity and have developed rules to prosecute those who block, obstruct, impede, or otherwise interfere with the normal flow of vehicular or pedestrian traffic upon a public street or highway . Some jurisdictions also penalize slow moving vehicle traffic. The unimpeded flow of traffic in the public road-space is often considered a common right.

Honestly, if I found myself in that situation, surrounded by a group of seemingly angry people, regardless of their cause, especially if my family was in the car, I’m going to keep moving (at a slow enough pace for anyone to easily get out of my way). If they try to stop me and start banging my my car... how is that not threatening behavior? Should I trust my car’s door locks to keep them from doing any worse harm ?

Obviously, the best option is to know what’s going on and avoid those areas in your car, but consider the person traveling cross-county and just happening to come upon a group of protestors blocking the interstate (with no way to back up or go around), who then surround your car.

Future next gen S2000 owner > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/10/2020 at 13:07

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Psht. Your argument depends on nuance, balance, and a willingness to view all sides of a situation. BE GONE! OFF MY INTERWEBS!

(If some people try to surround my car with my family in it and starting banging on it, I’d run there ass over. You can’t negotiate with physics.)

TheRealBicycleBuck > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/10/2020 at 13:14

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When I saw the original post, my immediate thought was that couple and their kid who were accosted by the motorcycle gang. They smashed their way into the car and beat the father, putting him in the hospital. After watching numerous incidents where “protesters” attacked and destroyed cars, I have no doubt about how I would handle a bunch of hooligans surrounding and beating on my car.

Chariotoflove > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/10/2020 at 13:17

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When humans have strong emotions about a subject, they have a tendency to deprecate or dismiss concerns that counterbalance their methods. There is the feeling that making concessions or considering other points of view is showing flaws in their cause and therefore weakness. In reality, the opposite is mostly true. When you acknowledge other perspectives , you improve your argument and your credibility as someone with a reasonable point of view.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > TheRealBicycleBuck 07/10/2020 at 13:20

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I’ll respect your right to protest just as much as you respect my right to not be detained against my will.

DipodomysDeserti > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/10/2020 at 13:22

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I was detained by my sheriff’s department   for over twelve hours for something the prosecutors determined wasn’t a crime. Even after being released by a judge, I was locked in a cell for over three hours while the jail staff filled out paperwork. Pretty sure I now have covid as a result of this detainment.

Would I have been justified in fighting the guards for detaining me after I was released by a judge?

Should I have fought the cop that handcuffed me and locked me in a 4x4 foot cell covered in blood for two hours, because I knew he didn’t know what he was doing?

Getting surrounded by protestors is not “being detained”.

Either grow a pair, or stay the fuck at home. Honestly, if this is how you’d choose to handle a situation like this, you have no business bringing your family out in public, because you are woefully ill equipped to protect them if you actually find yourself in danger.

I’d like to see how these people would react if they were ever locked in a cell by law enforcement .

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/10/2020 at 13:22

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You do know many of those laws were written specifically to target protesters.

Which once again brings us back to the point of these protests, fighting against the system because it is unjust and corrupt.

We have the right to protest. “ Just not like that.” 

Milky > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/10/2020 at 13:28

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I’ve been in the BLM march one day and drove by it the next. Literally saw it, drove over a block, drove up like 6 and then back over. If you end up “trapped” in your car by people walking , you wanted to be there and / or you can just wait.  

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Chariotoflove 07/10/2020 at 13:28

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Sad, but true... Our next VP, perhaps:

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/atlanta-mayor-keisha-lance-bottoms-tells-protesters-go-home/#x

Future next gen S2000 owner > DipodomysDeserti 07/10/2020 at 13:28

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Those are two different scenarios. Being detained by the police - which is their job and have the authority - is different than being surrounded and detained by protestors who have no authority to detain anyone.

I would argue being surrounded isn’t the requirement. It is more along the line that the people surrounding you aren’t allowing you to move.

But this is all theoretical. What would you do if a group of people surrounded your car, wouldn’t allow you to move said car, and where hitting the car?

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > DipodomysDeserti 07/10/2020 at 13:31

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I’m sorry that happened to you. 

Re-read what I wrote.

This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/10/2020 at 13:32

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Better to be judged by 12...

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 07/10/2020 at 13:35

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Should it be legal for any group to surround a person in a car and not let them move?

I’ll respect anyone’s right to protest all day long, until they stop respecting my rights. I’m fine with being inconvenienced, but as soon as it turns into a threatening situation, should a person not be able to defend themselves by leaving? 

Chariotoflove > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/10/2020 at 13:36

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Smart woman.

I have been of the opinion that the entire protest movement has been poorly handled and hurt itself. I think the age of the street protest is largely gone. A well-organized and well-led group could have used the power of the internet to spread the message far more effectively and peacefully without the risk of the crowd mentality that often  accompanies large, angry groups.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Milky 07/10/2020 at 13:40

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Yes, in most cases. But what if you’re on the interstate and come over a ride just as protestors enter the highway and start blocking traffic? You can’t avoid it in 100% of cases.

I’m not talking about people just walking; I’m talking about people intentionally blocking roadways (especially interstate highways), and it turning aggressive. 

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/10/2020 at 13:45

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Pounding on sheet metal and yelling are not an immediate threat. Insurance would cover damage to body panels.

These are protests. Not riots. They start smashing windows and pulling people out of their cars, then we can discuss mowing people down with a multi-thousand-pound deadly weapon.

Until then, just avoid the area. Or stop and wait.

How about we not try to make excuses to run people over with a car? Because that is what this sounds like. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Chariotoflove 07/10/2020 at 13:46

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I do think that p eople in the streets (with a permit) do help move change. All the peaceful protest leaders should have asked their cities to set curfews at dark (unless heading to/from work) to prevent a lot of the destruction that we saw. 

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/10/2020 at 13:46

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I honestly don’t know what I’d do in this situation. If I feared for my life or property I’m hitting the gas. I would first roll down my window and yell down with the fascists and see if I could get the protesters on my side.

fintail > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/10/2020 at 13:48

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Are there any legit cases of out of towners being lost and blindly driving into protest zones, or is this all just playing devil’s advocate for the brave patriot demographic?

There were a few incidents of cars driving into protesters in Seattle. All were intentional, one resulted in a fatality,  and in another case the witless choad driver is facing a deserved felony charge. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 07/10/2020 at 13:48

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I don’t think fear of property is sufficient, it has to be of personal harm to self or fellow occupants.

WiscoProud > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/10/2020 at 13:51

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Its one thing if you’re sitting in traffic and a crowd surrounds your car, but many of these cases were people driving into crowds when they had other avenues to go. Not to mention many of those laws were enacted in recent years to counter protests like these. 

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/10/2020 at 13:51

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For me it is. If you damage my property I don’t care who you are, if I have the upper hand I’m not going to allow it .

fintail > DipodomysDeserti 07/10/2020 at 13:53

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Sue  sue sue and maybe dox dox a little too.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 07/10/2020 at 13:54

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I think I agree with you, but it’s easy to not feel threatened by the idea of it while we’re sitting here typing on our computers. I f they start rocking my car or trying to break windows...

Plenty of vehicles have been set on fire during these protests.

If I’m in a car, I can keep moving  at 3 mph through a crowd and people can easily get out of my way. If they want to get hurt, they can choose to not move (no, I would not run a person over if they stood in front of my car).

MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) > Future next gen S2000 owner 07/10/2020 at 13:55

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I can tell you what I wouldn’t do...full throttle drive over people. There is a pretty thick line between pushing people out of the way with your car with no regard for their safety (because fuck them, protest or not I’m leaving) and WOT ramming people.

I am strongly against placing blame on victims, regardless of any ‘mistake’ the victim has made, they should not be the victim of a crime. That being said I question how many of these people who ‘had’ to ram their way through protesters had a chance to take a different route. I know they ‘shouldn’t have to’, but the part of the point of a protest is to be inconvenient, and reasonable places (so not all of America) place the onus on individuals to remove them self from/avoid dangerous situations before resorting to violence in self defense.

It doesn’t apply here but I like Canada’s proportional force idea: self defens e is justified only if the force is proportional, ‘I was scared for my life’ is not the be all and end all, what’s most important is the force being applied. No fantasy ‘what if he had a gun’ nonsense. Running someone over with your car for surrounding your car would not fly, because you’re using lethal force against someone who is not using the same level of force against you (it’s not about what you think they might do, it’s about what they’re doing) .

Chariotoflove > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/10/2020 at 13:55

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The old way that protests had impact beyond their locale is that they would draw the print and air news media that would then do a story on the event. A group formed in a city with a well orchestrated message, maybe good signage, etc., had a reasonable chance of ending up on the national news, and that was the real pay-off for organizing the event. These days, you can still do that and end up on news outlets (heck, CNN will probably run the footage on a continuous loop through the daytime hours, like they do anything else), but there are physical risks, including in current times the risk of COVID transmission to your protesters. But today you can bypass the news media to a large extent and still get your message out without the physical risks of a large gathering, even one with a permit .

MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) > Chariotoflove 07/10/2020 at 13:56

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because internet activism has had great success in increasing police accountability and reducing systemic racism...

DipodomysDeserti > Future next gen S2000 owner 07/10/2020 at 13:56

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You’re right, it is a different situation,  because the cops are allowed to kick the shit out of people, or kill them, and get away with it.

If someone surrounds your car, and you think you’re being detained, you’re a coward who shouldn’t venture past your front door. You have no business protecting loved ones if that’s how you react in that situation. Let your wife do the driving or stay home.

It’s not theoretical for me. I have had groups of people surround my car, and I have been arrested and locked up by police.

I’m not a coward, and kept my cool and didn’t harm anyone in both situations.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/10/2020 at 13:59

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It’s also equally as easy to put your car in Park and turn it off/show you pose no threat and try to discuss calmly about how to get through/out of the situation. Sure it would be scary, but de-escalation almost always yields a better result than being an idiot. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > fintail 07/10/2020 at 14:03

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This guy has his disabled daughter in the car and she was freaking out, fwiw. They let the car in front of him go, and some were waving him to go through as well, before some decided to block him. They dropped the ramp of the horse trailer and were trying to break into it.

Watch the video after the link as well. 

https://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/ohp-investigating-after-truck-drives-through-crowd

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 07/10/2020 at 14:07

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Yes, for sure. But at what point would you put in back into gear and GTFO of there? Or would you just exit your car (with your family) and let them burn it down, if that’s where it was heading? 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Chariotoflove 07/10/2020 at 14:09

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I just don’t think anything done online has the impact of feet on the ground. People who are willing to go out in the heat for hours on end and risk getting sick show the passion behind the cause. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 07/10/2020 at 14:11

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It’s not worth hurting or killing someone over some dents in your car (as maddening as it would be in the moment). 

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/10/2020 at 14:12

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the difference is a lot of those protests on roadways have police blocking the road for them. if the police shut the road down for a protest that doesnt give you the right to drive through it because “you feared for your life”

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > WiscoProud 07/10/2020 at 14:12

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Yes - those people should have turned around.

Should it be legal for a group of people to detain you in your car for as long as they please? 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > DipodomysDeserti 07/10/2020 at 14:19

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Let’s make it theoretical, then : should it be legal for a group of people to surround your car and not allow you to move for as long as they choose?

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero 07/10/2020 at 14:22

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Yes, of course. 

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/10/2020 at 14:25

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I agree I’d never consider taking a life, but I can also not allow it, as I stated by slowly moving forward, or spray my windshield washer fluid all over to get them to back off.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 07/10/2020 at 14:29

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Yeah, that’s kind of my thought as well. Move slowly enough forward that they know I’m no threat, just trying to pass through. But that might not be enough to stop some asshole from standing in front of your car and not budging...

Chariotoflove > MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) 07/10/2020 at 14:43

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Hey, no need to be sarcastic with me.

It worked pretty well for the MeToo movement. That movement pushed the issue out there with hashtags and social media, as well as celebrity involvement. This built the awareness of the mainstream media and synergiz ed with it. So there is precedent.

Chariotoflove > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/10/2020 at 14:46

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Maybe, but one has to weigh the risks and benefits. I look at the MeToo movement and what they accomplished with a carefully crafted and disseminated message. Social media made that work in a way that street protests could not have done alone. So I see current technology as a way to get most or all of the benefit without the collateral  risks that are hurting the message here.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/10/2020 at 14:48

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Freedom of choice. It’s their choice to be squashed in this instance.

WiscoProud > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/10/2020 at 14:58

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if you’re traffic is being impeded by a march, just wait it out. Thats part of the cost of having the first amendment. If they’re surrounding your car and beating on it, thats a different matter though. 

MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) > Chariotoflove 07/10/2020 at 15:05

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I understand your point, and I didn’t mean to be rude, but there has been online activism regarding systemic racism in police forces for at least a decade, and given recent events you’d have a hard time convincing me it has improved things enough to be the sole method for reconciling what the police do. People are being killed by the police, the police are lying about the circumstances under which they are being killed, the police get away with doing this because of the race of the people they are killing, and now that the police are being held accountable for it they are using their power to terrorize civilians at large (I don’t even mean the protesters, I mean the press & innocent people on their own property)

The MeToo movement is a good example of how online activism can have a genuine impact, but I think crediting the online activism alone with what little tangible progress was made from the movement is unfair to the people who personally pressured the US justice system to act responsibly, and also the in person activism of events like Take Back the Night. I also don’t have a lot of hope that the MeToo online movement has created meaningful change for groups like Canada’s missing and murdered indigenous women and girls. That’s not to discount the progress and the value of their online activism, but I am incredibly skeptical of the idea that online activism alone will create meaningful change. 

DipodomysDeserti > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/10/2020 at 15:08

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That’s not theoretical at all . People get arrested for jaywalking, disturbing the peace, and public disorder all the time. Standing in the street, disrupting the flow of traffic fit all those charges. Police officers have been kicking the shit out of and arresting protestors for quite a while.

Driving into someone with a 3k+ lb vehicle is also a crime, and much more serious one. It also puts an even bigger target on you, something you shouldn’t do if you’re actually in fear.

People’s lack of cojones is one of the reasons that, despite being a gun owner, I don’t care if anyone else is allowed to own a gun. Too many adults have lived sheltered lives and don’t know how to handle themselves properly.

None of my comments are aimed at you or anyone here personally. I don’t know any of you and have no idea how  you’d react.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/10/2020 at 15:14

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No idea. Still sounds an awful lot like looking for a reasonable excuse to run someone over. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 07/10/2020 at 15:21

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I’m honestly just trying to go through the situation in my head and determine the best way to react (or how I would, as reasonably and rationally and safely as possible ).

Chariotoflove > MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) 07/10/2020 at 15:36

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I think you use what works. The gatherings as they are currently being done are not working. I do think social media methods are a strong force when coupled with other forms of in person advocacy that do not involve mass gatherings. I think that whatever the cause at hand , gatherings of angry people are likely to be the riskiest and least effective way to put out a coherent and thoughtful message that get the most people on board and makes a real legislative difference.

DipodomysDeserti > fintail 07/10/2020 at 15:39

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Nah. The guy who arrested me was very naive, and will end of getting himself hurt soon enough. The cops mostly aren’t wearing masks either So they’ll all be sick soon. Two guards from the jail I was at have already died.

fintail > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/10/2020 at 15:42

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Looks like the local authorities, who I am sure have a lot of accountability and won’t end up with pensions that normal working people could never dream about,   failed to divert traffic properly . Driver isn’t at fault.

Unlike the Seattle cases.

IMO protesters should be surrounding the houses of the political and corporate top few rather than blocking roads.

fintail > DipodomysDeserti 07/10/2020 at 15:46

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Remember his name, maybe you’ll see it again.

Probably will get hurt and retire at full pay for life at age 35.  It’ll be interesting to see the longterm health effects, fingers crossed you are fine.

DipodomysDeserti > fintail 07/10/2020 at 16:12

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Yeah. I’m quarantining with my dad, as a coworker of his who refused to wear a mask tested positive the other day. He got tested last night so now we play the waiting game. My wife and kids are in Seattle right now enjoying it not being 116 outside.

MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) > Chariotoflove 07/10/2020 at 16:22

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I think that Rev.  King said it better than I ever could:

“ Let me say as I’ve always said, and I will always continue to say, that riots are socially destructive and self-defeating. I’m still convinced that nonviolence is the most potent weapon available to oppressed people in their struggle for freedom and justice. I feel that violence will only create more social problems than they will solve. That in a real sense it is impracticable for the Negro to even think of mounting a violent revolution in the United States. So I will continue to condemn riots, and continue to say to my brothers and sisters that this is not the way. And continue to affirm that there is another way.

But at the same time, it is as necessary for me to be as vigorous in condemning the conditions which cause persons to feel that they must engage in riotous activities as it is for me to condemn riots. I think America must see that riots do not develop out of thin air. Certain conditions continue to exist in our society which must be condemned as vigorously as we condemn riots. But in the final analysis, a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality, and humanity. And so in a real sense our nation’s summers of riots are caused by our nation’s winters of delay. And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. Social justice and progress are the absolute guarantors of riot prevention.”

fintail > DipodomysDeserti 07/10/2020 at 16:58

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Ugh.   Hoping it is as problem-free as possible for you.    The mask thing is insane - I have an uncle who is a nutty conspiracy theorist 45er, and also a boomer - and even he is on board with masks.  It takes a special selfish to fight the idea.

It’ll be 70 or so here most of the weekend, with a chance of a shower Sat night/Sun morning.    A big reason this is a mecca for transplants.

DipodomysDeserti > fintail 07/10/2020 at 17:16

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Yeah, they drove up the coast camping the whole time. Once I get my results back I’ll be headed to our high country. I have friends with land and water up there.

Chariotoflove > MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) 07/10/2020 at 17:27

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I seldom find reason to disagree with the good Dr., and this time is no exception.

fintail > DipodomysDeserti 07/10/2020 at 18:02

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Th at’s a fun thing about WA, some of the outlying areas are worse off in terms of the pandemic than cities.  Sounds like you deserve that break.

DipodomysDeserti > fintail 07/10/2020 at 18:58

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Yeah, my SIL lives in rural eastern Oregon and her whole town got infected after religious nuts tried to heal the covid.

fintail > DipodomysDeserti 07/10/2020 at 21:05

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Ugh.  From what I know, in WA it isn’t religious people specifically, just the know it all types who think the guvmint is trying to control them.

Jim Spanfeller > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/10/2020 at 23:57

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That’s the thing I feel like a lot of people are forgetting when it comes to these protests and the seemingly foolish/dumb/horrible things that happen with them. Mob mentality is a real thing and even peaceful protests can turn ugly with relatively small provocations, with most of the protesters having no idea what just happened. And for the police, I can only imagine that trying to deal with these things is absolutely terrifying. And when people get scared they tend to make bad decisions out of desperation. Are there a few bad cops out there? Certainly! But I wouldn’t be surprised if many of them are simply making bad choices out of fear. 

DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/11/2020 at 13:20

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I have no sympathy for people who protest on highways. Wanna block off a few blocks in the city? Go for it, but if you’re protesting on the highway you’re just asking for a Darwin award.